Curse

The truth itself · Jun 08, 2006, 01:12 AM // 01:12

I really dont care for the PvE stuff, the one thing i really miss is a decent targeting system for PvP.

Alias_X · Jun 08, 2006, 01:26 AM // 01:26

I have been waiting for the auction house and guild storage for a long time now. Didn't they say guild storage would be released shortly after Factions?

Quantum Duck · Jun 08, 2006, 01:27 AM // 01:27

First, thank you for taking the time to respond thoughtfully. I'll do my best to answer in kind. Level headed discussion of the issues for the win.

Quote:

Originally Posted by guppy

It does not mean, at all, that the posts on the forums or issues people have with the game should be ignored or simply shot down if not many agree with it (whether or not it is seen in game or not).

My point was primarily in regard to the increasingly frequent posts I see recently, including in this thread, about how Factions will be the end of Guild Wars. The "flaws" are so horrendous that everyone is jumping ship and the series is over. The details vary, but the jist is pretty much the same. I respectfully disagree and find it unlikely that the series is in trouble just yet. My first reason for this is the simple fact that Factions is selling more copies faster than Prophecies ever did. A lot of people are enjoying themselves.

Quote:

Originally Posted by guppy

Here is where the problem really comes, since we don't pay to play, should we expect no updates on a game that really requires it in fact.

When I said "More of the game for free", I should have specifically distiguished between content and features the way they did in the interviews. I was trying to imply content, and I'm sorry I wasn't clearer about that. I see that you specifically were not asking for more free content (Sorrow's Furnace being a free content update), but I see many others who seem to thing more should be added at no cost. Expecting content for nothing is what I was calling silly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by guppy

In any case, the game isn't perfect, and really does require skill balances and changes to missions and different other updates that further improve the quality of the game.

This we agree on. I wouldn't be nearly as happy with the overall value of Guild Wars if it weren't for the many pages of updates you can find on their main page. In my opinion, they have done an exceptional job for the most part in terms of streaming in skill balances and bug fixes in a fairly timely manner. If your opinion is different, then your assessment of the overall value of the game may be different. It would still be worth what I paid for it for one play through as it as launched in my opinion, but the fixes and upgrades pushed it over the top as one of my favorite games over the long term.

Quote:

Originally Posted by guppy

Here is where I make my point. Let us assume that all updates from here on are stopped. New content only becomes availible specifically when new chapters arise. For the sake of arguement, lets not consider skill balances. Now, imagine a game like factions comes out again. One with some crucial bugs which need to be fixed. Without updates, have we really gotten what we payed for. Moreover, have we gotten what we expected?

What you expected to receive for your money is your choice. What my box says is that I can explore Cantha, play through a story, play as 8 professions, etc. I don't see anything about a trade system. That's something they promised to work on, but it wasn't something advertised as the result of any particular cash transaction. They said it would be added to the engine for everyone who plays any of their games when it's done.

Again, I should have more specifically seperated content, fixes, and features. I don't expect new content other than from chapters I can choose to buy or not. If they add some for free, that will be another bonus in their favor in my mind, but I can't really expect them to run a charity. I'm a game programmer, and I have bills to pay. I expect that they do as well. If they stopped adding features, I would be disappointed, since they have promised to steam several features to all chapters when they're done working on them. However, I couldn't blame them for the change, since new features could very well be counted as content. I'm glad they choose to make the distinction and count new features as a free service. If they stopped fixing bugs while there are still significant glitches around (Which are few, but there are some), I would be unhappy and would be wary of buying future products from a company that doesn't suppor their products.

However, they have no intention of stopping the streaming bug fixes and balance updates, so I'm not worried about that. And they do choose to consider new engine features as part of the service instead of as content to pay for, dispite the fact that it takes at least as much time/work/money for them to make new engine features, which increases the value of the series for me in general.

Quote:

Originally Posted by guppy

Going back to the original point, what I mean to show is that the nature of the game requires updates and fixes or the player base would not only dissapate, it may even be almost gone without returning customers. A LARGE majority of expansion games rely on returning customers. It is naive to believe that there is an unlimited market of gamers, and I think that Anet is fully aware that the player base is still very important. In fact, they have proved it too, simply with mini-pets. The issue largely has to do with returning customers.

Of course they want returning customers. As many as they can get. But with episodic content, you can also sell each game to new people, which seems to be working pretty darn well for them. They're selling a great many copies to both new and existing customers. Again, one of my main points is that the unrest on any particular forum, though not insignificant, is a small piece of a much larger puzzle when it comes to their sales and the whole of the player base, and it hasn't hurt their sales to any significant degree. Whether it works for you or not, their current method of operation is working for a huge number of people.

Quote:

Originally Posted by guppy

I believe that the question really should be based in a players perspective playing the game. Do they really need better trade, do they need to make the traders upgrade armor, and so on.. They in fact don't need to, but a lot of complaints are derived on a few core problems. Trade being an example of something that is starting to cause more and more people discomfort with the PvE aspect of the game.

Yes, people want better trade options. That's why they're working on it. For free. If they really went all the way with the paying for content model, they could make an auction house a $10 upgrade or somesuch. But they decided put it on the engine team's list and release for free to anyone who's playing any chapter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by guppy

Lets go ahead and ask a question that I feel is somewhat important. If I payed for factions, imagine that ch. 3 is out and I payed for that too.. well, I am almost fullfulling the pay to play idea, perhaps a little less than WoW, but am I not entitled to features and updates that other pay to play games provide?

This is a key question. You are entitled to exactly what you paid for. No more, no less. And what you pay for in Guild Wars is content. And thankfully, they don't include most features as content. They only include new land areas/skills/professions/item skins/etc. No where on the box does it say that your money is going to get you any particular features other than the ones already in the engine. They keep expanding the engine to make the overall value of every chapter higher, but it's your choice as to whether you consider the new content worthwhile or not. It's important to note that you WILL get whatever their improved trading system is when it's done even if you don't buy Nightfall. That is why I call it free. You will get it regardless of whether you ever pay them another penny.

Quote:

Originally Posted by guppy

I really want someone to tackle this question, because does it justify that since others don't buy the optional stand alone's, I should not expect updates based on what I pay for? I mean you do essentially "buy new content" but is that all that I should expect for buying all the games and asside from game fixes, skill balances, will there be any importance on some issues that provide far better game play?

You buy new content. If they decide that a particular feature is considered content, it will be unique to a chapter, and it will come packaged with that chapter. Otherwise, you get what is in the engine, and they add to the engine (For free) when they finish making the new feature. If you do not consider this to be sufficient value for your money, that is your choice. The updates are coming and have been coming throughtout the history of Guild Wars. The new features that you want are coming. Whether or not they are coming fast enough for your taste is your personal choice, no more, no less. You were the one who chose to buy the game without them and wait.

Quote:

Originally Posted by guppy

The point of this thread I believe is to tackle the issue if updates, that could provide a much happier player base and for those who will come back to other chapters, should be more vital in the progress of the guild wars series?

And the point of my reply is that what they are doing now is both reasonable and making a huge number of both new and returning players happy. What they will add in the future will make us happier, but we've already gotten our money's worth. Of course updates are important. That's why they WILL keep happening. It's the choice of each individual to set a time table and be disappointed when it isn't met.

Quote:

Originally Posted by guppy

It is very easy to assume that we got what we paid for with chapters, did we get the same with factions? The problem people seem to be facing is whether to expect another buggy game that actually swamps the game developers from producing some quality updates that significantly improve gameplay and also help sales on that behalf. Is the production schedule too tight? If Ch. 3 ends up having so many bugs, I believe the general consencus may actually be that we don't get what we pay for because we have a game that is actually fully functional several months later.

As a game programmer, I can pretty much say definitively that the people making missions, the people fixing AI pathing bugs in missions, and the people building some entirely new engine feature are pretty much always different people. They have been, are, and will continue to BOTH make new chapters (Two teams switching off to give each team a full year of nothing but content generation), and add updates from the engine team (Or teams, more likely, broken down into the server/networking tech team, gameplay mechanics team, graphics, physics, audio, and so on) whenever they get done with them.

Again, if the team assigned to new engine features isn't adding free things fast enough for you, it's your choice to feel that way. None of the promised updates are required to play the game, they are bonuses that will make some aspect of the game easier or better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by guppy

On top of that, additional features that could be added are not and are based on a time frame of several months by which another chapter may come out and another excuse to not provide updates. A few months is in fact a large amount of time, and to those who do have the patience and will stick with the game through several months, then I don't believe most players can share that patience as they assume to get what they paid for at the time of purchase.

Again, the time frames you have a problem with are your own construction. They didn't promise these features as content with any particular money transaction. They promised that they were working on them and that they would be added. They will be. I kind of agree that they should stop using the term "soon", since no one really knows what it means and lot of people think it means a lot less time than ArenaNet apperently means by it, but that's beside the point.

If the lack of a promised future feature kills the game for you, why did you buy it? Stop playing and come back when the feature is available. They won't charge you any money while you're not playing, and the feature will be there for free when you get back. Again with the episodic thing, you won't be any weaker than anyone else when you get back from leaving for however long you choose.

Quote:

Originally Posted by guppy

Small things go a long way, and although it is perfectly fine to assume that you got what you payed for (good for you), it is unreasonable to assume that a game such as this really doesn't need to keep the player base happy. I only wish people wouldn't generalize that trading in itself is all that needs to be changed (not even added!). There are side affects to having a poor economy and one side effect is spamming in local chat. Another issue about certain game balancing mechanics based specifically on pve with armor traders not yet providing an update to armor. Should players buy a new 15k armor set? Does this not tie into trading as it deals with the economy? That is only one aspect.

The economy has never been the focus of this game, and was never advertised as a feature. People make it a big deal for themselves, and ArenaNet decided that there are enough customers who want it to be a priority that they should put some effort into it.

And yes, I did get what I paid for. And I must ask again. Given how easy it is to find out what is in a Guild Wars chapter, why did anyone buy it who didn't believe it was worth $50?

Quote:

Originally Posted by guppy

I don't feel comforted that major updates will come every 6 months when a new chapter is released. If that is the case, then I might as well pay to play and arrive with a more dynamic game. Does Anet have the resources to provide a dynamic game without comprimising future chapter development. This should be a key issue and if it isn't the case, then for keeping the player base happy, is months for updates really reasonable? especially if they can develop a new game in 1 year.

A quick glance at the update page makes the game look pretty dynamic to me. This is of course subjective. Given the fact that the updates are a free part of the service they provide to anyone who ever bought one of their chapters (This sounds odd now, but won't a few chapters from now), I'm not only content, but enthusiastic about the level of free support they offer between paid content additions. If you decide that it's not enough on your schedule to merit $50, never pay another penny until the game is up to your standards. We'll still let you play whichever parts you like for free.

Quote:

Originally Posted by guppy

EDIT: I appologize, in regards to additional game content, I do not mean another SF, I mean more gameplay changes and features that improve the quality of the game. Not specifically more maps and missions and quests.

Yes, the distiction is important since it is the distiction made by ArenaNet to differentiate what they ask us to pay for, and what they give us as a free service.

In closing another long rambling post (Sorry about how long winded I can be.

), I'd like to thank you for posting your position on the issue so much more articulately than the typical complaints I've been reading so many of. You really helped me see the other side of this issue more clearly, and I hope I've managed to do the same for you and others who agree with you even if we can't come to an agreement.

Muse of Shadows · Jun 08, 2006, 01:44 AM // 01:44

I have seen some say that one year is enough time to produce a quality game because they already have the game system, models, textures, ect. in place. Although those facts do allow for a shorter than normal production time, one year is still far to short. Need an example? They spent a year and a half on factions, and a large portion of it is still crap.

How they currently have the release sceduals setup, there will be two new half-a** chapters every year. The buisness view problem I see with this is, most people who would be purchasing these chapters are those who already own prophecies and/or factions. This means keeping the current community happy is a big factor in their income. This community seems to think quality>quantity, meaning even if kept happy with existing products, will be unlikely to buy many additional chapters.

I would much rather see, as I am shure many here would as well, one good chapter a year instead of their current plans. I believe (untested obviously) that ArenaNet would acualy be making more money with this slower production, because of the much greater ammount of products sold. In other words, their best intrest.

No numbers to back up the previous theory, but in economics, you need to achieve a balance between the cost of a product and the number of purchasers. Meaning, the higher the price,the lower number of customers vs. the lower the price, the greater number of customers. There is a point where the price and number of customers equals the greatest net income, and anything farther to ether side lowers the total income.

You can apply a similar aspect to the number of chapters produced vs. the quality of those chapters. There needs to be a balance found for ArenaNet to make money at it. Two chapters a year is to many, due to the lack of quality on ether one, the same way that one chapter every two-three years would be to great of a time interval, meaning to little sold.

If ArenaNet/NCSoft wants to make money, they need to spend more time working on each release, enshuring a higher quality and therefore more sales.

If I am correct, they will sale more products if it is one product a year than two products a year, because (random guesses with no backing info) only 30-40% of those who would purchase one good release a year would be purchasing two half-a** products a year. 20-40% less total sales, and very unhappy consumers.

My appologies for whatever I forgot to include, and any redundentness/repeated comments I made. I currently do not feal like proof-reading as I usualy do.

generik · Jun 08, 2006, 01:58 AM // 01:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muse of Shadows

If ArenaNet/NCSoft wants to make money, they need to spend more time working on each release, enshuring a higher quality and therefore more sales.

Nope, it seems like NCsoft's strategy is to cash out as much as possible on the good name of Prophecies, let the whole enterprise die, and just throw Anet down the toilet bowl.

It is not like GW is compatible with the rest of the line anyway, so obviously it is in their worst interests to have any good come out of GW (it undercuts their sales). If anything this failure will only serve to deter future Jeff Strains from even thinking about trespassing in the lucrative p2p MMO industry.

Sanji · Jun 08, 2006, 01:59 AM // 01:59

I still say that releasing a chapter every 6 month with a years work on each is still a little too brisk for my taste. One giant problem is the onslaught of skills that this will produce. There's already too many flat out weak or niche skills in the game, this is something that is not going to get better as the chapters progresses.

That's not to say Factions doesn't have a number of skills that are quickly working their way into people's builds. However, for every skill like that, there are at least four that are totally forgettable.

This isn't so much a question of how much content is being release, but what amount of quality and freshness there is too it. That's the reason I'm all for them slowing down just a bit on cranking out expansions.

generik · Jun 08, 2006, 02:02 AM // 02:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sanji

That's not to say Factions doesn't have a number of skills that are quickly working their way into people's builds. However, for every skill like that, there are at least four that are totally forgettable.

That is bound to happen, with each instalment will come skills (that together with the core sets) that are capable of forming viable builds. Of course there will invariably be some duplication there.

robrobrob · Jun 08, 2006, 04:33 AM // 04:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninna

I know that ANET has thus far refused to comment WHEN trading will be improved

but I do recall Gaile hinting that Auction Houses would be happening very soon
- whether she mispoke, I dont know

can see Gailes ingame chat here
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...d.php?t=101081

Wanna see a short list of chats? http://gws.echoshift.net/?p=19 That rant begins with one.

Ninna · Jun 08, 2006, 10:14 AM // 10:14

I went to the link and none of those chats speak of *when* trading will be improved

as I posted earlier in this thread
on Aug 25,2005, there was an interview stating that Observer Mode and Trade improvements were the highest priority.

it was stated that Observer Mode would go live 1st

it took over 9 months for Observer Mode to go live

ANET was NOT working on both Observer Mode and Trade at the same time

I know we will see trade improvements this year
- but engine improvements are SLOW to release

Hockster · Jun 08, 2006, 11:29 AM // 11:29

While everyone wants better trade, no one has actually submitted a viable solution. It's easy to suggest add trade houses or auction only districts when they're not the ones footing the bill for programming and hardware.

The actual economy needs fixing moreso than trade.

Zimba · Jun 08, 2006, 12:09 PM // 12:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hockster

While everyone wants better trade, no one has actually submitted a viable solution.

LOL Well if they make it opensource and i will help with the coding. As i have done it with GIMP. I think i have contributed like 500 hours of my spare time to make it 1 of the best free photosuite.

Count to Potato · Jun 08, 2006, 02:50 PM // 14:50

THey will, no patience with everyone like always...

Tauruse · Jun 08, 2006, 02:52 PM // 14:52

I'm happy with things.

Quantum Duck · Jun 08, 2006, 06:05 PM // 18:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muse of Shadows

How they currently have the release sceduals setup, there will be two new half-a** chapters every year.
...
I would much rather see, as I am shure many here would as well, one good chapter a year instead of their current plans. I believe (untested obviously) that ArenaNet would acualy be making more money with this slower production, because of the much greater ammount of products sold. In other words, their best intrest.

I understand what you are saying, and if I thought the new chapters would be "half-a**" I would be in full agreement. The problem is that I believe that they are capable of making $50 worth of content in a year of one teams time. As evidence, I would like to point to your evidence. Factions was worth $50 to me. It was also worth $50 to a lot of other people. I would like to mention "selling more copies faster than Prophecies ever did" again. I believe that the next chapter, after a year of work, will be worth $50 to me. If you consider it "half-a**", feel free not to buy it. No one made you buy Factions, and you had plenty of chances to find out what it's like.

Your economic forcast of sales numbers would have a lot more meaning if what you considered "half-a**" and what the vast majority of the customer base is loving matched up a little better. They would literally have to to sell less than half as many to end up with less money, and I REALLY doubt 1 year vs 2 year development cycles will cut in half their customer base.

Of course, only time will tell. But I'll keep buying them as long as their as good as they have been so far, and I tend to doubt I'm the only one.

fb2000 · Jun 08, 2006, 06:56 PM // 18:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by dargon

Not to mention, that each group of people working on things like bugs / adjustments is broken down into subgroups such as ART DEPARTMENT. I for one would rather an artist didn't try writing code thank you very much. As things get fixed / completed by each subgroup of people, they are then tested. When testing is completed if no problems are found then they are released. If you think you can do better, then by all means APPLY for work there. Here's the webpage with the list of openings.

http://arena.net/jobs/index.html

If on the other hand you have ZERO knowledge of just what is ACTUALLY involved in coding and supporting a rather large and intimidating project such as this one, please quityerbitchin. You are welcome to your opinion on matters, but that's all it is YOUR OPINION, do not treat it is the gods honest truth because more than likely, your opinion is based upon less than steller information backed up by other rumors and straight out lies.

why do we read the word FIXED 37 times one after the other then?

Quantum Duck · Jun 08, 2006, 07:42 PM // 19:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by fb2000

why do we read the word FIXED 37 times one after the other then?

Because hundreds of thousands of people playing a game will always find at least 37 bugs that a few hundred people couldn't possibly find in a reasonable amount of time. For those really bothered by a few bugs (I got through the game on release day just fine, as did many others. I'm sorry for those of you who did hit the progression stopper bugs but it certainly wasn't universal), may I recommend waiting a few weeks after a chapter comes out before buying it? With the way Guild Wars episodes work, you won't be any weaker than anyone else if you join late, and they usually work out the worst problems hit by a few of those hundreds of thousands of people within a month.